PVE 38: Bungie Weapons Design Team Interview ft Vivian Becks and Chris Proctor

It's a Bungie takeover! Join the usual suspects as they grill two members of the Bungie Weapons Team on all things PVE. Court, Saint_Kabr, and Impetus have a lot of questions - and luckily they were joined by Chris Proctor and Vivan Becks from Bungie to answer as many as possible. Listen for the full context, and refer back to our official show notes & timestamps here to keep the details straight.

PvE Ep 38 Interview w/ Chris Proctor & Vivian Becks - Transcript & Timestamps

00:00-4:15 Show Intro
4:34-5:24 Vivian Becks introduction and game development background

5:32-6:07 Vivian’s duties as Weapon Designer @ Bungie: exotic/legendary weapons, weapon perks, balance changes, weapon systems.

6:08-8:16 Q: The 3.0 system has entirely changed the way that weapons and abilities interact with each other for the better. What is the process of creating Elemental Sandbox Perks like? Are they functionally the same as the subclass verbs or their own unique things developed in tandem with the sandbox team?

Vivian: For the most part, weapon perks that use 3.0 verbs are “one and the same” except where the duration of a verb’s effect may be tweaked for balance reasons. Abilities team designs verbs as they are the foundation of the 3.0 abilities, weapons team will “riff” on verbs once they get their hands on them but collaboration is a huge part of the Elemental Sandbox perk design. Elemental Perks aren’t strict power upgrades in the same way that traditional damage perks can be, which requires extra “playtesting, iteration and discussion across the whole sandbox team”. Weapons team likes Elemental Perks because they “help characterize a weapon’s damage type beyond what modifiers and shields is this [weapon] really good for”. EPs help define a weapon’s “character”.

8:17-10:08 Q: It's interesting to see such a shift towards sandbox Perks which didn’t exist for the majority of the games lifespan (prior to witchqueen) - outside of the likes of Dragonfly, Firefly, Chain Reaction, etc - has there been a change in general philosophy towards capitalizing on Elemental Sandbox Perks especially in tandem with the Light 3.0 reworks, or even engine upgrades to facilitate these Perks? 

Vivian: “We’ve always wanted weapons and abilities to marry together as a cohesive whole”. Stasis and Abilities 3.0 system was the turning point for this goal with 3.0 verbs serving as “gameplay grammar” that “works the same across the whole game”. Verbs allow Weapons team to give damage types “deeper identities” and “facilitate deeper learning” as once a player learns what a Verb does in their abilities they can expect the same behavior from their corresponding weapon perk. Abilities 3.0 allows Weapons team to make “more complicated-feeling stuff without necessarily having a lot of special cases”

10:19-10:30 Chris Proctor introduction

10:30-11:46 Q: What are the Weapons Team’s feelings about the introduction of Origin Traits so far?

Chris: “Origin Traits have succeeded beyond what we thought they were originally going to” IE Weapons team wanted players to care about the source of a weapon AND to chase new weapons as they come out.

11:47-13:48 Q:Has your general philosophy changed when making these Origin Traits - is there a worry you may ship overpowered or underpowered new Origin Traits in comparison to existing ones?

Chris: Philosophy has changed over time, in the beginning Weapons Team didn’t have a solid idea on how strong Origin Traits should be or “how tightly coupled to an activity we wanted them to be”. Origin Traits were expected to be “half the strength of a regular perk”. WQ shipped with a bunch of OTs to match different sources but also to test different styles of OTs “to see what players would grab onto”. Cites Gambit Origin Trait Invader Tracker as an OT designed to be specific to an activity but was too specific at launch hence the rework to Gun and Run. “Hyper-specific” OTs are being looked at and reworked accordingly. While many OTs are popular, Weapons Team is staffed to look at and tweak underperforming OTs as needed.

14:15-16:30 Q: Can we expect more Foundry Traits in the future? Fans mention Black Armory, Cassoid, Crux/Lomar, Daito, Tex Mechanica as Weapon Foundries for World and Playlist Drop Weapons.

Chris: Origin Traits were originally called Foundry Traits because they were only going to appear on the four major Foundry weapon categories: Hakke, Omolon, Suros, and Veist. Weapons team realized later in development that this system could be expanded to include more activities. Foundry OTs are still a priority for the team as they can add them to weapons that already have an activity OT for more player choice. 16:13 “In the next few seasons, we’re going to see a couple of new Foundry traits coming out” 

16:30-18:56 Q: You’ve returned to existing weapons groups to give them Origin Traits. Any comments about that process and philosophy?

Chris: Re: bringing back sets of weapons is dependent on story beats with a specific character; 17:33 “the moment there is a Black Armory story beat or an Ada story beat, you can expect Black Armory weapons to come back, or if there’s a really strong Saint beat… or Rasputin”; goes on to mention DSC weapons coming back with Origin Trait and new perk pool (and craftable), 18:11 “we’re going to start doing that with those types of chunks of content every season or every other season… old raid weapons, maybe dungeon weapons, maybe other sources”; DSC is first on the list because it has a raid vendor and that makes it easy to purchase red-bordered weapons

18:57-23:07 Q: We've heard very recently about the Weapons Team's desire to uplift Adept Weapons - recently announced was the desire to increase their viability. Can you talk about more of these changes if possible?

Chris: The main problem lies in the tension between craftable (raid) weapons and Adept versions of those same weapons. “A crafted version with Enhanced perks is just better than the Adept version as it stands” Starting with Lightfall raid, you’re going to be able to acquire Adept weapons with Enhanced perks. These weapons will not be craftable; there will be a chase to them, more details in the future. As for Adept weapons from Trials or Nightfalls, the goal is to make those weapons “extra spicy” –Court comments on the spiciness of Kingsfall weapons– GMs, Trials, and raid weapons break the stat and perk column rules, KF weapons have double damage perks but the perks have different activators as a way to prevent the weapons from completely dominating the competition –Court jokes about Kindled Orchid– Kindled Orchid would keep Rampage/Kill Clip if it returned as that’s an “iconic” roll. KF weapons are “a little spicier than we intended” 

23:23-25:32 Q: If you go could back in time, would removing the ability to Enhance Traits on Crafted Weapons be within the realm of possibility to allow Adept Weapons to be the only Weapons to get Enhance Traits and allow them more room to breathe?

Chris: Enhanced Traits are core to crafting system, giving incentive to using the system. “There’s definitely power creep in the crafting system… 5-10% in the outliers which we’re definitely comfortable with”. Ultimately not that different from Adept weapons which are “2-5%” stronger than regular versions. Community is “way more attached to Adept weapons than we were expecting”, Adepts were originally meant to be cosmetic variants of the base weapon but Weapons team decided to add small tweaks thinking it wouldn’t make that big of a difference, community cares a lot about those tweaks.

25:32-26:39 Q: What else could you do - without introducing power creep - to make Adept Weapons a lot more viable compared to curated Craftable Weapons? Larger Stat boosts? More unique Adept Mods?

Chris: Long term goal (post-LF) is to revamp the weapon mod system, will probably accept the “small amount of power creep that is Adept weapons with Enhanced perks” 

Community Questions

27:16-30:00 Q: How do you make a debuff exotic weapon? Are other teams/departments involved in the making of this kind of a weapon? Are there specific use cases that are outlined from the start? Does a debuff exotic have a different playtest process?

Vivian: Depending on the type of debuff, said weapons have specific playtesting processes that involve a lot of collaboration in order to gather the necessary feedback and data. Raid and Dungeons team is involved almost immediately, there’s generally a specific use case in mind from the get go but most of the testing and iteration occurs once a large-scale playtest is performed (ie entire fireteams optimized around using the debuff exotic to its fullest extent); additional collaboration is done with the Combatants & Bosses team to ensure that the debuff weapon “meaningfully helps you… but doesn’t completely bull over your obstacles”

Chris: Once a season a bunch of teams meet to hear what the Weapons team is publishing (new weapons, perks, buffs, nerfs) and provide concerns and feedback so that the Weapons team can get ahead of problems. Other teams have playtests where a representative from the Weapons team will gather feedback to share with the rest of the department. Establishes “a point of contact” to transmit questions.

30:00-31:17 Q: When did you start making debuff weapons?

Chris: We don’t have folks who were involved in Tractor Cannon’s creation. For Divinity’s creation the Weapons team worked quite closely with the Combatants team to ensure that it worked correctly and they continued to work with Combatants for the tuning to Divinity. 30:57 “A lot of the content in the game is built assuming that players have easy access to a 30% debuff/weaken” and while that is still the case the Activities team is quite interested to see how the Divinity changes affect player loadouts

31:17-32:47 Q: Divinity is getting its Weaken effect reduced from 30% to 15%. Will you still be able to apply Divinity's Precision Cage in tandem with a higher active Weaken (e.g. Tether) effect? Will Divinity override or cancel out any other Weaken effects (as it has had a habit in the past to do this) or will it be safe and intended to combo both effects?

Chris: 31:47 “Yes (Divinity’s Precision Cage will stack with higher active Weaken effects)” 

32:47-36:40 Q: Can you also talk about what other changes were in the cards for Divinity. Some suggestions from the community-at-large:

  • Divinity applied a 0% weaken effect that would override other weaken effects, but still maintain its Precision Cage; or

  • Alternate Firing Mode: one mode applies the 30% weaken, but no precision cage; other mode applies a precision cage, but no debuff; or

  • Reduced magazine/ammo count

Chris: Lots of changes were discussed within the team but the strength that they wanted to preserve was Divinity’s ability to “consistently output damage”. Team decided to touch its “all-up ability” where Div is always the option for most activities, usage in GMs was “40%” in certain Nightfalls which is “distressing”. One trial change was a small debuff that only applied to Arc damage but stacked with other sources… “ended up being too fiddly”. Current change addresses “the core issue and is much more straightforward” –Court references original Tractor Cannon functionality– Weapons team did discuss changing Div’s function away from Weaken to a more Arc-focused Verb but decided to leave its original design intact. Divinity’s change also fixed a few bugs with Rewind Rounds and Cloudstrike. An alternate firing mode on Divinity is an interesting idea but “more fertile ground for a brand new exotic”.

36:40-38:52 Q: If possible, in addition to above though this may be more of an Abilities Sandbox question, can you discuss Bungie’s philosophy on damage stacking (re: Empowering Buffs like Weapons of Light and Global Debuffs like Tether stacking with each other). Has there been any desire to move towards damage stacking with diminishing returns, or any plans on taking another look at damage stacking at large? This question can also be used to anchor the point re: outliers from Exotics like Gyrfalcon's causing some headaches, more so in the Crucible than PvE.

Chris: Multiplicative damage stacking is “an enormous pain in the ass… a big and very complex problem” cites the old meta where all buffs and debuffs stacked together which needed to be condensed into categories of buffs that don’t stack anymore. There are several ideas being tossed around like a damage multiplier cap, Chris’ personal favorite is switching from multiplicative to additive so that players can optimize to their hearts’ content without putting so much strain on the endgame difficulty curve. Reiterates that damage stacking is a large problem space and that in the short term, 38:42 “some of the bigger multipliers… will have to come down a little bit” 

39:11-42:40 Q: Unfortunately some exotics have been left behind in the wake of this change due to their lack of interaction with these new elemental verbs. What is your philosophy around going back to exotics and adding in elemental verb interaction? Is there any concern about communicating burn vs scorch damage to newer players?

Vivian: “Elemental verbs are a great way to tie in weapon damage… to your subclass, any [exotic weapon] strongly aligned with those themes is a great candidate to get folded into the system moving forward” but not every exotic weapon needs to be added to the system. Acknowledges that burn and scorch are confusing but scorch is more powerful than burn

Chris: Not every exotic weapon needs to tie into its damage type, want to allow for different ways to buildcraft.

42:41-44:24 Q: Are burn and scorch functionally different?

Vivian: “Yes and no”; Damage application is identical but scorch has additional properties. 

Chris: There’s edge cases like Overshield. Turnabout applies a vanilla overshield while Repulsor Brace gives you a Void overshield with all the properties that come with that verb. Agrees that scorch and burn need to be standardized.

44:24-46:13 Q: What happened to enhanced incandescent?

Vivian: Change to perk was a “confluence of factors”, Enhanced Incandescent was better than regular Incandescent in some circumstances but worse in others, triggered bugs. Perk is more consistent now and is a small buff in that it changes the number of defeated enemies needed to trigger an ignition.

46:17-49:32 Q: Kinetics are outshone by their Elemental counterparts - what's the ultimate goal of Kinetic as a Damage Type? Can you mention anything related to their upcoming changes post-Lightfall, and is Quicksilver Storm a litmus test for Exotic Kinetic Primaries having a unique power fantasy (along with other things like Osteo Striga, Outbreak Perfected, Witherhoard) compared to Elemental Exotics

Vivian: Goal is for Kinetic to be a “proper, valid damage type for weapons… something that can have its own place in the sandbox”, will be adjusting the damage type across weapons come Lightfall. – Court references Quicksilver Storm – Chris confirms that the Arc rocket is a bug.

49:32-51:25 Q: When approaching the task of creating perks with subclass synergy, what is the design philosophy behind each perk maintaining its corresponding subclass identity, regarding specific subclass verbs, and is there a balance between trying to create support/utility perks and damage perks (i.e. incandescent/voltshot vs repulsor brace/chill clip) ?

Vivian: We start with achieving the effect of the subclass verb [“I want to scorch”] and then building the perk around that. Team is trying to create perks that “serve a variety of roles within a single element”, more elemental perks coming in Lightfall that will “fill out this roster”.

51:25-54:19 Q: Both Incandescent and Voltshot have been received incredibly well by the community, while Repulsor Brace has been far more muted (I think). Are you happy with where it landed or do you think the timing of its release and the more specific Void synergy it requires are holding it back? And does it matter in the grand scheme of things?

Vivian: Repulsor Brace requires a “higher baseline level of buildcrafting” than Incandescent and Voltshot. Very few PvE activities require an Overshield instead of better damage. As more Void perks come out, more synergies will emerge. Major factor is ease of use versus potency.

54:19-55:28 Q: Are all verbs on the table for potential weapon perks?

Vivian: Many verbs are frequently potent which leads to hesitancy but if there’s a cool and interesting way to put a verb on a weapon, the team will try. “I wouldn’t write anything off”.

Chris: Some verbs would need “very tight constraints”, an Incandescent-like perk that suppresses enemies would be “very toxic in PvP”.

55:28-57:33 Q: In a great deal of PVE content (i.e. outside of Master/GM NFs, Raid/Dungeon Bosses) it feels more effective to go for long periods without ever firing a weapon, particularly a primary, and instead rely solely on buildcrafting around abilities. Given the experiences bridging the gap between weapons and abilities with perks like Voltshot and Incandescent, is this something that's on the radar? Are there plans to make specific weapons or perks more central to buildcrafting?

Vivian: “Subclass builds can be really, really potent” abilities, weapons and movement should all be ingredients to your moment-to-moment gameplay. Elemental perks offer a lot of design space and avenues to make gunplay a more viable option. 

57:33-58:26 Q: Are there any plans to make synergistic weapon perks that work in a sort of non-direct sub-class? For example, Voltshot having a more beneficial effect like the spreading of scorch, or incandescent scorch counting for repulsor brace overshield, etc. Or more simply cross-pollinating the weapon subclass perks for an even greater effect?

Chris: Focused on perk effects that stay within the damage type, partly for clarity. Interactions between damage types is interesting but not something the team is looking at right now.

58:26-59:42 Q: Are there any plans for more specific interactions between exotic guns and armor, like Lumina and Boots of the Assembler/Weapons of Sorrow and Necrotic Grips?

Chris: No plans but “vigilant for opportunities”. For example, an armor designer wanted to incorporate Lumina’s Noble Rounds into an exotic armor piece so the Weapons team helped them get that set up. Opposite story with Osteo Striga; Weapons team wanted to tie the weapon into Necrotic Grips’ functionality. Both teams are onboard but nobody’s trying to force an interaction from the outset.

59:42-1:00:37 Q: Lumina is unique in the sense it allows you to support teammates with its healing and empowering effects without relying on abilities, does the team see further potential for weapons and perks that allow for support since most perks are damage, gun-feel and only self-applicable?

Chris: Very excited by the space for support weapons, will be devoting resources and time to exploring that in the future, particularly with subclass verbs and Strand

1:01:00-1:03:37 Q: Previously, the question of what could be done for sweet business to give it more pizzazz was met by a desire to build upon what the craziness of the gun is already. What is something that could be done to further bring out the lucrative nature of a gun that can fire forever?

Vivian: Want to keep exotics unique as sandbox develops. Old faves won’t lose their identity.

1:03:37-1:05:16 Q: As someone who very much enjoyed the chase of rolls on Hawkmoon/DMT, but also the crafting for Osteo/Glaives, how does the weapons team feel about each route to obtaining random/selected rolls for exotics? Both felt a bit experimental, and I’m sure they can be a bit of a pain to balance, but it definitely changed up the exotic chase from one-and-done for me.

Chris: Coming into Beyond Light, team had goals around getting players to invest in their weapons through a chase and/or customize an exotic to their playstyle. Hawkmoon was a trial run for random rolls. Crafting system put customization in the hands of the players completely. “I doubt we’ll do more random rolled exotics but we’re definitely going to do more craftable exotics”.

1:05:16-1:08:01 Q: What was the thought process behind taking a D1 Exotic like Hawkmoon, or reworking a current exotic like Lord of Wolves, instead of just making a new one for those ideas?

Chris: We prefer to make new exotics as remaking an exotic has about the same cost as making a brand new one. An artist had redesigned the Hawkmoon model in D2 and Chris decided to bring it back for fun. In the case of a D1 exotic, the new version has to feel like the D1 version, and it has to feel strong and cool enough to be a D2 exotic. Hawkmoon had an additional issue with its random damage identity which no longer fits into the D2 weapon methodology. As for Lord of Wolves, team took the opportunity to tweak the gun to better suit the fantasy it was designed to achieve while restoring its strength after a series of major nerfs.

1:08:01-1:10:24 Q: What's your vision for niche perks like Under Over, Turnabout, and other "Shield" Perks? Have they hit the mark in terms of viability?

Chris: Largely, yes. Team has been conservative in the column placement of some of these perks and has plans to change that. 

1:10:34-1:13:52 Q: When designing a weapon or balancing one that exists, what are the technical limitations on splitting the changes to the weapons between PvE and PvP sandboxes to preserve a weapons identity in one sandbox while tuning it in the other?

Vivian: Both design and technical challenges in this regard. Team wants to preserve the same identity and feel in most game modes as a way to help new players learn and reinforce gameplay habits in experienced players. 1:12:41 “Most weapon tuning depends on what target you’re trying to hit, not what activity you’re in”. Consistency is key. –Impetus brings up difficulty of touching aim assistance– Chris says they don’t want weapons to feel worse in PvE because they’re creating issues in PvP, cites Gjallarhorn changes as an example of what they aim to achieve in sandbox tuning.

1:13:52-1:17:48 Q: When working on a weapon, how many different passes do you take at it and how many teams get involved before it’s finalized?

Vivian: At least three, sometimes many more. First pass is to “lay down what [the weapon] is about”, a second pass to “make changes and adjustments” and a final pass to “really polish it”. Each pass can be multiple weeks. Lots of playtesting occurs throughout this time where people on multiple teams are giving feedback to weapons designers. No correct formula for designing a weapon. Some logical feedback, some emotional feedback. When an exotic ships, it will be touched by “Concept Art, Design, 3D Hard Surface, Audio, Animation, and VFX” teams plus any other teams across the studio that will be affected by the weapon. Audio in particular “recontextualizes” a weapon in a major way.

Chris: 1:17:20 “Exotic weapons are the single most expensive pieces of content that designers make”; one exotic weapon will take half a season (1.5 months) to make, one legendary perk might take a few days to a week.

1:17:48-1:21:02 Q: Can you walk us through the balancing process with regards to exotic weapons like Delicate Tomb? Delicate Tomb feels extremely powerful while amplified (especially in casual content), while in more difficult content and PVP it really seems to struggle to keep up.

Vivian: It is a goal to have an exotic be good in most activities but sometimes an activity-based exotic should feel really good in its specific activity. “What is the use case in a variety of different scenarios?” Delicate Tomb excels in content where there is a steady stream of targets to damage and generate Ionic Traces. Understandably it can struggle in PvP for this reason but also due to its unique spread pattern. Ultimately, DT’s performance in any given activity is being tracked by the team and can be tweaked accordingly.

1:22:36-1:24:29 Q: Seasonal event exclusive Origin Traits seem like a tough balancing act to manage their strength and exclusivity alongside a narrow weapon pool, how different is your process when designing them?

Chris: Seasonal OTs are heavily-themed around enemy types and the seasonal activity. Event OTs are so exclusive that it’s hard to make a super strong OT. Small selection of weapons is quite beneficial to making a solid Origin Trait that is custom.

1:24:29-1:26:44 Q: How do weapon design and story narrative work together for new exotic weapons? Do you have a weapon concept on the shelf with archetype, stats, etc. already drafted, and then build in cosmetic features and exotic perks when the narrative team develops the story? I’m thinking of examples like Delicate Tomb, DMT, Agre’s Sceptre.

Vivian: Depends on the exotic weapon, Narrative can come in right at the start to shape the identity or Weapons team can build a solid theme on their own and collaborate and refine as needed. Art and Narrative are extremely talented at creating themes that the Weapons team loves to respond to in gameplay. Delicate Tomb was not designed initially for the Season 19 narrative but was gradually roped into the Nezerac theme.

1:26:44-1:28:21 Q: One my favorite guns both thematically and in use is One Thousand Voices. Everything about it just feels like a great destiny raid exotic, but it’s strength and overall power has been stepped on quite a bit by all the current strong heavy options. Are there any plans to give One Thousand Voices a buff, whether through a catalyst, Solar keyword interactions, or reserves in the future?

Chris: Team is fiddling with 1K Voices and Solar 3.0 interactions right now but won’t give specifics. Team is tracking underused exotics and wants to bring underperforming cases up as inspiration strikes. 27 exotic weapons are being changed in upcoming releases.

1:28:21-1:30:05 Q: When you make a new perk or exotic weapon, I'm sure you test them in all manners of the game, patrol to end game, Gambit and PvP. But is there ever a targeted area of the game you want it to shine and then try and balance it for the rest of the modes?

Vivian: Making weapons shine in specific activities is a great starting point.

Chris: Sometimes a weapon designer comes to Bungie with an exotic in mind that they want to design and the team loves to help them make it.

1:30:05-1:31:08 Q:What is your general design approach when creating new exotic weapons? Do archetypal/elemental/ ammo type vacancies play a role in this process?

Vivian: Vacancies are a good starting point, team wants to give players options. After that, design approaches vary widely. Two examples: 1) Top Down Design: start with flavor and mechanical fantasy first, then build everything around that; 2) Bottom Up Design: start with a problem and fix it, a theme emerges along the way.

1:31:08 Wrap Up and Outro


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